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Ron: (00:01) Welcome to the Insurance Hot Seat, a special series by the Geek Freaks Podcast dedicated to answering the tough questions in the insurance industry.

Music: (00:10) [Intro Music].

Ron: (00:23) Like to welcome our special guest. Ira Wolfe author of 'Recruiting in the Age of Googlization.' How are you doing Ira?

Ira: (00:31) I am doing very, very well. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. I love talking about this stuff. Everybody else hates doing it, I love talking about it.

Ron: (00:40) Yeah, it's, it's a definitely a growing topic, right? And then with technology evolving and things changing with the hiring and unfortunately firing process, um, it's a huge market and it's a huge problem and it's a huge question mark for a lot of small businesses. So I appreciate the time, the wisdom and the knowledge you're going to share with us. So to kind of set the table for you, um, I work with a lot of small and medium sized businesses typically, uh, in the insurance industry and we always kind of get asked the same thing or have the same conversations with business owners or executives. And that's how are you hiring? What's, what are you seeing in the terms of hiring? What's working for recruiting, you know, what are the soft perks or the perks that people look for? So, you know, I'll let you take it from there because I know you're the man with all the good information and I'll stop talking and let you take the wheel.

Ira: (01:28) Yeah. And you just let me know along the way get up to something else you, you feel the listeners or, um, like I, I can talk all day about that. So you just interrupt when there's a, when there's a point you think needs clarification or we need to talk about a little bit more.

Ron: (01:43) Excellent.

Ira: (01:45) And again, thanks for, for allowing me to be here. So 'Recruiting in the Age of Googlization' uh, talks about two different things. Um, one is we live, we're living in a very fast paced, disruptive world. Uh, technology is part of that. The pace of change is another, um, you know, which chicken or the egg, you know, is a technology causing the pace, accelerating the pace of change or is the pace of change, uh, you know, contributing to the, the onslaught of technology and it's probably, it probably is a little bit of both. But then how we live and play and work and do our businesses is also changing. And that's really what the concept of the book was, is here's the book. Somebody described this, excuse me as a book in two parts. Uh, one is the first part of my book was about the world of change. Uh, that was also the topic of my TED Talk that a TEDx Talk a few years ago and it was about how fast the world is changing and then you know, how we need to do business. And my focus has been on recruiting, uh, and really hiring, uh, of all aspects of recruiting. And then also retention, which is part of hiring. You want to hire people that are going to stay. So part of that has definitely shifted. Um, a couple, um, a lot of what shifted is consumer behavior. Um, and in this case we're talking about candidate behavior, but the same trends that impact everyone's customers out there in the field. Uh, you know, it's highly competitive. People can shop, uh, they can go online, they can get different different quotes. Um, you don't have to be local anymore. All those things also impact how people hire. Yet people have adapted their websites, their CRMs, um, their marketing, uh, tactics, um, their digital marketing methods and strategies. Um, people have changed that significantly. We hope they have a, that if they want to grow, uh, over the last few years, what they haven't done is changed the way people apply for a job that your business, yet the job seeker has changed the way they look for jobs. So there's this growing gap and you know, I know we're, we're podcasts, so I, I'll try to visualize this as best as possible. The job seeker, um, one is we have exceptionally low unemployment and it's going to continue that way. Um, I, I to have a podcast Geeks, Geezers, and Googlization and on this week's show, um, we actually interviewed an economist and his name's Alan Beaulieu he is from ITR Economics and he projected, uh, and their firm is, is tremendous. They have a 95% plus accuracy rate over the last 30 years.

Ron: (04:43) Wow.

Ira: (04:44) Um, and so you believe what he says?

Ron: (04:46) Yeah.

Ira: (04:46) I mean, they don't, as he says, he doesn't predict he forecasts, but they'd been straight on and we just, he, he, we just interviewed him and he said everything that we have now is pretty much baked in for 2021 and maybe even early 20 or 2020 and early 2021. And that includes not only will employment remain stable, but it's likely going to uptick, which means it's only going to get harder. So with three under 4% unemployment, uh, everyone, almost everyone, I don't want to slight anybody out there. It's because there's probably some good people, there's good people out there, but there's probably people that have the skills that you might want, that your, your clients might want you to listen to. This might one, but they're few and far between. There's usually not somebody out there sitting that, uh, very employable and, uh, doesn't have a job. So given the fact that we are in historically low unemployment, everybody that's working, everybody that you want to hire probably has a job. So that's changed. It's never been this way. A second factor is that there's more people looking for jobs. And this, this got confirmed today. I saw somewhere some, some new survey, um, confirm this again, there's more people looking for jobs or there's more jobs than there are people looking for them. So despite the fact that everybody says, Oh yeah, I'd switched jobs and you may know a lot of people that are looking, the fact of the matter is, is there's more jobs open than there are job seekers looking. And those job seekers already have a job. So the only reason that they're going to shift gears, the only reason that they're going to give up a solid paycheck and benefits were hours or even the relationships they have in those businesses is if you create a better opportunity and the better opportunity isn't always compensation. Um, there's a, I, I apologize, I don't remember the name who did the survey, but it's a very reputable, it might've been Forester Research or IBM and they just said that people that are leaving jobs are willing to accept a 20% reduction in pay to work for the right company have an opportunity to grow. And I know small companies always say, well, you know, we're small and there's not a lot of opportunities to grow. People could be in the same job title in the same seat, at the same desk, but there's additional responsibilities that you can provide to them or you might provide to them, help in securing new skills, which is an opportunity to grow.

Ron: (07:26) And I think that's huge.

Ira: (07:26) It doesn't mean that, yeah, it is. I mean, it doesn't mean that you have to give somebody a new job title and double their pay. 25 years ago, this was the phrase, hire for skill. People hire for skills, fire an attitude. So why don't you hire an attitude and train people the skills they need. Yet. We're, we're here we are in 2020. I started the business in 1996 in 2020 we're still talk, people still hire on skills. They hire on an, they hire on a resume, they hire because they have five years experience. So there are certain skills that you need insurance position may, you may have to be registered, you may have to be certified, you may have to know your things. If it's a, a admin, it's somebody in administrative assistant, uh, customer service they have to have some technical skills. So there's a baseline number of skills that people need. And most of those can be taught or people can learn them. Uh, however, um, you know, people still don't hire people based on their attitude. And part of attitude is, are they open minded? Do they have a, what we call a growth mindset. Are they willing to learn, do, or are they just stuck that, Hey, I have, you know, I have a degree. I have a master's degrees, I have nine certifications and I have 10 years experience. Therefore, you should hire me just on that. And I can coast through the rest of my life on all the hard work that I put into it. And that was true. That was very true just a few years ago. I mean, in our lifetime.

Ron: (09:00) Yeah I was going to say that sounds pretty common.

Ira: (09:00) Yeah, but it's not because things are changing so fast that tomorrow is way different than it's going to be today. And sometimes we can't even predict what's going to happen. And I'm not talking, you know, crisis. But the, the tech, the technology and the consumer behaviors, um, are, are adapting so fast, so quickly, um, that you really have to be, you know, throw out another buzzword. But you really need to have to be agile and if not agile, at least adaptable. And the difference is agility is adaptability with skill. Yeah. Sometimes you just go with the flow and sometimes you, you sort of control the flow. How can we reach young? How can we reach the modern candidate? And I know I was going to say young people, but it's the modern candidate and your mobile website. Your website has to be mobile ready. It's got to look good. And I know a lot of companies have never paid attention to that. They haven't checked it out on their phone because they don't like using their phone or they only own a flip phone or they don't understand why people are using phones. It doesn't matter. Consumer behaviors, everybody's mobile, uh, mobile ready. And if you, if, if you have somebody that says that they're working at another agency, they're there, they're working in business and they say, you know, I'm tired of this. I'm, you think I'm going to look for another job? The first thing that they do is they, they may, they may go to a job board or they just may look at an agency like you, um, or a company and they'll check you out. And if they can't do a couple things, if your website looks like it was built in 1950 or 70 or 90, um, they're going to check out and then they go to try to find what jobs are available. Or even if you don't have a job, what's it like to work for your company? And they've got to be able to find that page, that information. And most companies don't have a good career page to describe what it's like to work here. You know, you'll describe your history. We've been around since 1949, you know, or three generations into this. These are all the services provide. But somebody says, well, what's it like to work there? How am I going to seal at the end of the day? Um, you know, what are, what are the expectations? What are the opportunities? Um, so you have to look at a career page as the homepage for talent and you have to reframe it. You don't need a whole website for this. You just need that. And then when somebody clicks to apply, you need to have an application that's relatively easy to fill out. I fill out, I'm not telling you to make it easy to comply. I'm telling you to make it easy that you need to engage people. It has to be pretty short and quick, that they can at least screen what you want and then they're willing to fill out along the application. But if they're expected to, um, download a PDF and fill it out and mail it to you or fax it back to you, and that's not going to happen. If you have a, um, if your application is online, but it has more than 50 fields, you're going to lose more than 50% of your, of your applicants, uh, with that because the, the surveys show that 50% of people who visit a career site never make it to the application. They leave because it's too difficult and to find, to read, or you just don't have good information there. And then anywhere between 50 and 90% of people who apply for a job quit in the middle of the application because it's too long or it's too difficult to complete on the devices that they have. And again, with 96, a lot of people don't own desktops anymore. They may not even own a laptop, they own a tablet and they own a smartphone. And so I'm not telling you you don't need all the information to hire somebody. But if you're looking for somebody who has, is available to work full time, uh, that they have, uh, five years experience, that they have certain skill sets that they're proficient in Word or Excel or a certain software program that they use. You can ask four or five questions and if they answer no to any of those questions, then, then you know, they're not qualified. Don't need, don't ask them. You don't need their name and their address and their high school principals phone number. Um, you don't need all that. What you need to do is, here's five questions. Are you over 18 years old? He's available to work Monday through Friday. Do you have a certain, uh, you know, this certification? Do you have a college degree? Um, you know, do you have five years experience? Are you proficient in a particular thing? Four or five questions? They answer no to any of those questions. They're out. Don't bother. Don't waste your time. Don't waste theirs. If you, if they do, um, meet that screening standard that is, then you have an opportunity to engage them. Hey, congratulations. Uh, Ron, you, well, you know, welcome. We're really excited. You were interested in working for us. Um, we either like to schedule you for a phone, a quick phone screen or, uh, we do require some additional information. You will have a almost 90% completion rate at that point versus having 90% drop out. So there's little things that you can do to make a difference. And you know, it doesn't matter if you're a small company of five employees or a enterprise company with 100,000. It's the same rules out there because people are applying for all these jobs. And that's the expectation I can go to. I can, I can get an insurance quote easier than I can apply for a job. I can, I can get a mortgage and buy a car easier than I can even apply to get a job. I don't mean get the job, but even to apply to get a job and that, that behavior from companies is what's making it so hard. Uh, 50% of the people that are currently are working are thinking about changing jobs.

Ron: (15:10) That's crazy.

Ira: (15:11) But you wouldn't know that. But I'll buy all the yeah, I mean that's, that's another problem. We can talk, we can talk another day about that. Um, but 50% of the people said, we within the next six months, they're considering looking for another job. And yet if you talk to employers, they say that, where are they? Where are these all these people because we can't find them. The problem is you make it too hard for people even to communicate with you. Forget that, you know, I'm in having a chat, you know, being able to schedule an interview, just thinking, Hey, can I, I'd like to schedule five, 10 minutes of your time just to see if I should even bother applying. Because we live in a customer centric world. And in what we're talking about today, a candidate centric world doesn't mean you have to, it doesn't mean you have to compromise. Doesn't mean you have to give in, doesn't have to bow to all the, all their whims. Um, but you definitely have to be nicer. Yeah. You have to do things differently.

Ron: (16:07) And I think it's a, the way I like to think about it and I guess what I was thinking about when you were saying it is it kind of parallels with a sales form, right? So keep it short, keep it simple. Get what you need until they're qualified. Until you know that this is going to be a sale you want to pursue. Don't, don't inundate people with questions because they don't want to do it. They want to get in and out and they want to leave you with the information.

Ira: (16:30) Yeah. Think about this. You brought up a great example. Um, and you know, you may have a newsletter, but think about this. You have a newsletter. Um, you know, in the past it was like, I want your first name, your last name, your company title, you know, your address, the state you worked in, where you worked and your email address. And you know, 15 years ago people did that because it was unique and they wanted the information you provided. Now, um, you ask for an email or a text, uh, depending on how you deliver it and maybe a first name and sometimes you don't even ask for the first name. So I'm sure you subscribe to a lot of places and you know, a lot of newsletters and things. Um, because one is you're looking for that first touch point. You're looking for someone to say, yeah, it's tough enough to get people just to respond. But once they respond, you don't want to turn them away. So they give you a base information. Again, something as simple as as, as the email and maybe a the first name, uh, insist you can get to the last name, not to difficult. But at that point now you can say, Hey, thanks for doing this. Um, and now you can follow up and offer them something else. Um, and it's, you know, it's creating that funnel, um, of where things happen and you communicate with them often, um, is, you know, you still to kind of rule of thumb, but you know, it's took seven touches to get a commitment from somebody that's not so different by the way then what it is with hiring as well. Um, the, there's seven steps, seven decisions that a job seeker goes through. Um, when it comes to the jobs. And the first is they make a decision that if they're going to look, and that's sometimes a big decision. I think I'm going to look for a job. I mean, give up the stability of my paycheck and, and have to meet new friends. So I'm going to look for a job. The second thing they do is they check out your company. And that's why your company website is so important. Because again, remember you already have, they're already working so they, they're not gonna just apply because they're not desperate. They're going to check out your, your company's site. Then they'll look at the job. So that's, so you have three decisions before they even get to the point where they click to apply that one is they make a decision, I think I'm going to look, then they're going to say, I'm going to evaluate your company and then make a decision. If they want to pursue it, then they're going to look at the job a little bit more closely and make a decision and then they're going to click the to apply. Now they have to decide, am I committed to the process? So how many people have applied for a job or you know, and from your end, how many people have applied. You try to reach them and they're unreachable or you schedule an interview and they don't show up. And that's because they had another decision to make. And the decision was, do, am I really committed to this process? If you don't understand that or you throw up roadblocks if you don't make it, um, if you don't have some type of engagement that they feel emotionally involved enough to, to show up, they're not gonna do it.

Ron: (19:38) Nope.

Ira: (19:39) And you know, and then, and then, then it's afterwards. Even if you give them a job offer, they have to, that's another decision point. So there's seven steps. I won't go through all them, but those are, there's seven decision points and each one their companies run interference on everyone. It's not a seamless friction-free process. Um, there's long delays that goes into it. Also, I won't say the acronym out loud, um, because we couldn't, I don't want to offend anybody, but there's an acronym. Uh, there's an article on the website, I'll send you the link posted in there as well. Um, but the acronym is called F.C.D.D. So if you tried to pronounce it, you can imagine what it sounds like. Um, it's that it stands for the four emotions that, that turned people off in an experience. There's also way this is really good for your customers too. This isn't exclusive to recruitment. It stands for frustration, confusion, disappointment or distraction. And when you think about every touch point, every interaction you have with the customer or in what we're talking about candidates, if there's a point that they frustrated, they had to wait too long and they didn't hear it's too, you know, even the commute distance, they tried to get there and it took too long, whatever. So if they get frustrated, confused, don't know what happens next, don't know where to go, don't know what this button means. Um, if they're disappointed, um, with something, and again, that could be a delay. It, uh, you know, it could be that, uh, they, they applied and they didn't hear, they called you. You didn't respond or it's a distraction, which means to just too many things. When somebody applies for a job, you don't want to start selling them, giving them discounts and saying, Hey, well, you know, before you apply for a job, why don't you let us give you a quote on your insurance? And that happens all the time.

Ron: (21:30) Really?

Ira: (21:30) It's like all the widgets on the side of a website.

Ron: (21:32) Yeah.

Ira: (21:33) It's a widgets on the side of a website. Um, just as you're, you know, when somebody applies for a new customer, the first thing you don't do is, Hey, before I give you a quote, do you know anybody looking for a job? No. You would never do that. The sales people stay focused, but that doesn't happen in HR. That doesn't happen in recruitment. People just throw up the application and go, well, everybody who applies is a potential customer, so let's, let's try to sell them as many things and have as many shiny objects as possible on this page. And, and you have to be focused. So again, remember that the acronym a, F.C.D.D. Which is frustration, confusion, disappointment and distraction. Um, it's really a fascinating process. I would do this. I would also do this because that's where it came from. Looking at your customer experience and go through every touch point that from the time somebody decides, Hey, it's time for renewal. I'm going to look around what the customer do. How can you make it, how can you remove the frustration, disappointment, confusion, and distraction from their search?

Ron: (22:41) Any, any search job search, renewal, search. I mean anything.

Ira: (22:44) Yeah absolutely.

Ron: (22:47) What a great, great...

Ira: (22:49) It's powerful.

Ron: (22:49) Yeah. What a great, yes it is. What a great note to end on Ira, I appreciate it. I don't want to keep you all day. I can listen to it all day cause it's very fascinating.

Ira: (22:58) Well I love talking about it and I appreciate the opportunity. Um, and I, again you're welcome. Um, the opportunity and everybody said questions and I can help anybody. Um, you know, please contact me.

Ron: (23:09) Well, how, I was going to ask you how, how can we get ahold of you? Where's the websites? Irawolfe.com, Twitter, Spotify. You said you got a podcast and a website.

Ira: (23:18) That's my personal website.

Ron: (23:19) Yup.

Ira: (23:20) Yeah. So lot, a lot of different ways to do it. So I always tell them I say this somewhat facetiously, but it's true. You search for Ira Wolfe and especially Ira S. Wolfe, which stands for Steven. Um, I'll show up in the search. Um, but you can go to my personal website, learn a little bit more about me. I've got a bunch of videos up there. That's my speaking website. Um, if you want to learn about my company, it's successperformancesolutions.com. It's a lot successperformancesolutions.com. Um, there you'll find out about the assessments the recruitment. Um, do you want the book? I actually, I'm on Amazon too. You can type my name in and 'Recruiting in the Age of Googlization' up there and my podcast, which is actually a live radio show. We're on every Wednesday 1:00 PM and then on every podcast platform that there is that we know of. Um, it's Geeks, Geezers and Googlization.

Ron: (24:13) Perfect. What a name.

Ira: (24:14) So if you go to Geeksgeezersandgooglization.com. Yeah, so that's for young, old technology. Um, we have some great guests where, uh, we talk about what we're talking about here, recruitment, hiring, engagement, uh, leadership, the future of work technology. Um, we, we've had some really, really top guests and uh, we're having a lot of fun with that. I get to meet a lot of people. Um, I'm usually on the other end. Your end Ron. Uh, but uh, yeah, but, uh, absolutely. So again, you can just look for Ira Wolfe. Um, connect with me if anybody's on LinkedIn, Twitter, uh, are usually, are I spend most of the time I'm on Facebook too, but better off getting me on LinkedIn or Twitter. Um, and, uh, in order to just do a search and reach out.

Ron: (24:59) Perfect. Well, I appreciate it, Ira. It's fant it was fascinating. Uh, I learned a lot. I'm sure our listeners did too. And, uh, I appreciate your time and you have a pleasant afternoon, sir.

Ira: (25:09) Yeah. And everybody have a good holiday and a really happy new year.

Ron: (25:13) Happy holidays. We'll talk to you soon.

Muisc: (25:14) [Outro music]